Dr. Morgentaler's Order of Canada

shagz wrote:

Rudie, I've seen this being performed on video when I was in highschool, in a propaganda video put forth by Pro-Life groups. I wouldn't advocate it myself, but I still believe that it's within the mother's rights as to what she wishes to do with her own body. As for Nazism, it's the Pro-Lifer's that shoot doctors that perform abortions and threaten clinics, trying to impose THEIR will upon others.

I think you are talking about a radical "few" but nonetheless they are getting the press. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I believe that a baby is a separate human being and not an extension of the woman's body. The baby has separate circulatory, nervous and gastric systems as well as completely different DNA.
If you research the origin of Planned Parenthood (which is basically an abortion clinic) Margaret Sangster had close ties to Hitler and his beliefs regarding the preservation of the elite race.

I've seen some horrid (you would call it propaganda) of the "products of conception" post abortion. Those "contents" were living separate human beings.

Rudie, if you look far back into history, it was a common belief of the upper castes of society to preserve the "elite" race. Mostly done by segregation and the keeping of the class system. I still believe in planned parenthood. Abortion has been present all through history and every society. Women in rural India today still drink pennyroyal tea to abort early conceived fetuses. As for the radical few, just watch a large Pro-Life protest and pay close attention to see how many people are on the borders of hysteria. I still believe that it's a woman's choice as to what she wants to do to her body, even though I wouldn't want my wife to go through with one.

rudievalentine wrote:

rye wrote:

cking wrote:

The rape of a 12 year old would certainly be an exception. No one would argue that! There are tragedies in life. However, I doubt that the majority of Morgentaler's clients were 12 year old rape victims.

And NGH doesn't perform abortions, not because of "screaming fanatics" but because the doctors are morally opposed. In other words, due to their religious convictions, they are "anti-abortionists."

Morals and religion aren't neccessarily the same thing. Also it may be due to the fact you need to specialize in that sort of thing and NGH just doesn't have the doctors that are.

Actually Rye, I used to work at NGH and Dr Olsson is Catholic, so he doesn't perform abortions. Dr. Soenen is a born again Christian and actually helped start a crisis pregnancy center in Saskatchewan a number of years ago so he doesn't do them. I'm not sure of Dr. Mattar's religious affiliation but I know his children attended the Catholic school system so I am assuming that is where his ties lie. Dr. Fisher was the only one who performed therapeutic abortions and he is retired as I stated. All the surgeons at NGH are general surgeons and each one of them is essentially "qualified" to perform a therapeutic abortion.

I would think that to perform them regularly would require you to be specialized, not just qualified.... A doctor is "qualified" to perform a lot of procedures that they don't do..... Like someone said we'd have to talk to each one and find out I guess... Not that that's the issue anyway...

Also, how long ago did you work at the hospital? I only recognize a couple of those doctors names.

Wow I really don't agree with a lot of the statements here about how it's used as "Birth Control".

Who are you to say that? Do you personally know someone that's had an abortion?

There are many reasons a child may be unwanted, what about medical reasons? What if the child was going to have half a brain and is just going to be a huge burden and won't even have a good life itself? Sometimes its better to let the fetus go, and it's a fetus, not a child at this point!

Where do you stop? If I kill my sperm am I commiting murder? Come on.... I can see if the thing was concious and knew what was going on but really. Also chances are if someones having an abortion the child probably wouldn't have had a good life anyway.....there's some deeper reason behind some of these cases!

"Actually Rye, I used to work at NGH and Dr Olsson is Catholic, so he doesn't perform abortions."

So if a doctor is a Jehovah's witness, can he or she refuse to perform or refer patients for blood transfusions or organ transplants?

keep on promoting the holier than thou agenda..

If it was one of your "princess" daughters that had been "knocked up" by "delray" the local crack dealer the rubber would be peeling of those tires faster than you could say.. "I need lowlights, not highlights"..

If in doubt, keep those legs together, otherwise pay the jew [morgantaler] to do the job for you..


hl

rudievalentine wrote:

shagz wrote:

Rudie, I've seen this being performed on video when I was in highschool, in a propaganda video put forth by Pro-Life groups. I wouldn't advocate it myself, but I still believe that it's within the mother's rights as to what she wishes to do with her own body. As for Nazism, it's the Pro-Lifer's that shoot doctors that perform abortions and threaten clinics, trying to impose THEIR will upon others.

I think you are talking about a radical "few" but nonetheless they are getting the press. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I believe that a baby is a separate human being and not an extension of the woman's body. The baby has separate circulatory, nervous and gastric systems as well as completely different DNA.
If you research the origin of Planned Parenthood (which is basically an abortion clinic) Margaret Sangster had close ties to Hitler and his beliefs regarding the preservation of the elite race.

I've seen some horrid (you would call it propaganda) of the "products of conception" post abortion. Those "contents" were living separate human beings.

Referring to Hitler?

That is ..... irrelevent.

Abortions are a personal choice not a tie to Hitler's idea of an "elite race".

That's almost a disgusting statement.....

Reading all these comments I wish a girl would come forward and share the feelings they have to deal with after their abortion.I work in a home where these girls come to and the pain and depression, the regret on their part is undescribable.It takes alot of councelling and therapy for them to hold their heads high again.Whats also a shame is when parents insist that their daughter has an abortion just to protect the family name or just not the right time to have a baby, is also a really big part of their emotional healing.Those picking up the pieces to help someone with the pain and regret can be very emotionally draining. The Dr. didn't think about this and what a shame

Anderpooh, do you not think there would just be twice as many people at the single-mother crisis center with an even worse scenario because now they have a baby they can't take care of, if abortions were not an option?

When the girls realize that these babies are a gift and then they choose to murder that's the part where they suffer in shame and saddness.We try and help them as much as possible.Taking a life is NOT the answer.Whether it's an unborn baby or an adult that gets murdered there still is the consequences that a person has to deal with.It's a long journey of forgiving ones self and then holding your head high to feel good about yourself so you can carry on and have a good life.Bottom line don't murder.

AnderPooh wrote:

When the girls realize that these babies are a gift and then they choose to murder that's the part where they suffer in shame and saddness.We try and help them as much as possible.Taking a life is NOT the answer.Whether it's an unborn baby or an adult that gets murdered there still is the consequences that a person has to deal with.It's a long journey of forgiving ones self and then holding your head high to feel good about yourself so you can carry on and have a good life.Bottom line don't murder.

Wow, do you force all of your views on these girls too, or just the ones on abortion? "Bottom line don't murder"?!?!

I think maybe you should look at what you just read....
Have you experienced being around someone who's had an abortion...maybe try it and then get back to us and see if you feel the same way

AnderPooh wrote:

I think maybe you should look at what you just read....
Have you experienced being around someone who's had an abortion...maybe try it and then get back to us and see if you feel the same way

I suggest that we have all been around women and girls who, at some point in their lives, have had abortions - far far more than you may realize.

Some may regret it, many more don't. However, like I say, you will never know . . .

I am wondering if perhaps you have to be a woman to really understand and comprehend pregnancy and abortion and the emotions involved.

Just to have been pregnant...to carry life...is an honour and a responsibility. Pregnancy and birth is an event that one never forgets over a lifetime...the details, the joy, or perhaps the sorrow, all of it.

And to end that life,either willingly or through "counselling" by others...must also carry with it a huge lifelong"debt."

Morgentaler is not a woman. He is a businessman responding to a demand.

AnderPooh wrote:

I think maybe you should look at what you just read....
Have you experienced being around someone who's had an abortion...maybe try it and then get back to us and see if you feel the same way

I know a couple of girls that have had abortions, all early in their pregnancies. All were in situations in their lives where having a child would not have been a good choice. Both were apprehensive to tell me (because I'm adopted), but both were glad to talk to me because unlike other people I did not judge them. Like I previously stated, I would never want to look at that route. I'm lucky enough to be at a point in my life where if my wife was to get pregnant, I'm well equipped financially to deal with raising a child. I'm all for abortion clinics. How do you feel telling a young girl who's gone through these emotional issues that she's a murderer? Does it ease your conscience? Morgentaler provided a safe medical facility for women opting for abortion instead of forcing them to receive crude treatments (ie. coat hanger abortions) in back alleys. By going public, he also put his own life in danger by religious nut-jobs, who would easily target his own life in their own religous beliefs.

Well said Shagz!!

If brow beating these girls into feeling guilty for the abortions then theses people should feel guilty for the emotional strain they are adding onto these girls.

I was raised with the "don't judge a person til you walk in their shoes".

I know a few girls/women who have had abortions and some talk about it, some choose to "forget" about it. I don't push the subject, I am there not to judge (unlike some). They need support, not being told that they have just murdered a child.

Enough already!!

Abortion should not be taken lightly. At the same time I feel there are situations where abortion is an option that has to be available.

AnderPooh wrote:

We try and help them as much as possible.

AnderPooh wrote:

Bottom line don't murder.

I am sure telling them if they have an abortion it is murder really helps them emotionally. Hope you wood it a little better.

Should anyone considering an abortion be required to see a video of the upcoming procedure? Or do we continue treating it the same as the removal of a disfiguring "growth" or ingrown toenail?

It surely is much more significant than that, isn't it? No one has nightmares and psychological trauma after removing an ingrown toenail, yet a "therapeutic" abortion is often offered simply as a "fix."
"Let us help you. We will relieve your unnecessary pain."

I direct you to a website called Hassle Free Abortions. This is NOT some religious website or anti-abortion website. It is a PRO-abortion website. It makes my blood run cold!

http://www.hasslefreeclinic.org/Abortions.html#AbortionMethods

That site makes me feel like a pregnancy is on par with a dental abcess.

This is Wikipedia's description of the D and E procedure of abortion. Dilatation and Evacuation

"The first step in a D&E is to dilate the cervix. This is often begun about a day before the surgical procedure. Enlarging the opening of the cervix enables surgical instruments such as a curette or forceps to be inserted into the uterus.[2]

The second step is to remove the fetus. Either a local anesthetic or general anesthesia is given to the woman. Forceps are inserted into the uterus through the vagina and used to separate the fetus into pieces, which are removed one at a time. Lastly, vacuum aspiration is used to ensure no fetal tissue remains in the uterus (such tissue can cause serious infections in the woman). The pieces are also examined to ensure that the entire fetus was removed.[2]
Variations
Feticide may be performed prior to the surgical procedure. The tissues of the dead fetus will soften, making dismemberment easier. The standard D&E procedure is difficult after 20 weeks gestational age due to the toughness of the fetal tissues.[4]

If the fetus is removed intact, the procedure is referred to as intact dilation and extraction by the American Medical Association,[5] and referred to as "intact dilation and evacuation" by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG).[6]




The bolding is mine. Ask any O.R. nurse about the "pieces"

"The bolding is mine. Ask any O.R. nurse about the "pieces" "

If regular hospital nurses hate performing abortions then I guess that only shows the need for more abortion clinics. Your descriptions still haven't changed my feelings towards being Pro-Choice. This shows that all women that are considering abortion should be encouraged to do so early in their pregnancies. But what would be worse, this surgical procedure or a coat-hanger being rammed into a woman's uterus to do the job?!?!

Would you shove a coat hanger in your ear if you had an earache? Would you shove a coathanger up there if you were constipated? Anyone who shoves coat hangers in their uterus or other orifices for "relief" has far more serious problems than an unplanned pregnancy! As I see it....

That's always a very popular counter-argument...the coat hanger argument.... that tries to dissuade from the real issue here of terminating life. It's like the coat hanger comparison will stop the discussion right away.
Not for me. You mean, without Morgentaler, your only choice was a coat hanger? How about some forced responsibility and some realization of consequences? How about some maturity re. choices made?

Coat hanger or scalpel or vacuum...all these methods take a viable life.

And shagz, in spite of your matter-of-fact response to the nurse and health care worker on this board, I cannot imagine the trauma for nurses of seeing little arms and legs and toes and fingers and baby heads in the waste receptacle. I cannot imagine that! And I don't even want to. Bless them for their strength and tolerance and intestinal fortitude!

cking wrote:

Would you shove a coat hanger in your ear if you had an earache? Would you shove a coathanger up there if you were constipated? Anyone who shoves coat hangers in their uterus or other orifices for "relief" has far more serious problems than an unplanned pregnancy! As I see it....

That's always a very popular counter-argument...the coat hanger argument.... that tries to dissuade from the real issue here of terminating life. It's like the coat hanger comparison will stop the discussion right away.
Not for me. You mean, without Morgentaler, your only choice was a coat hanger? How about some forced responsibility and some realization of consequences? How about some maturity re. choices made?

Coat hanger or scalpel or vacuum...all these methods take a viable life.

And shagz, in spite of your matter-of-fact response to the nurse and health care worker on this board, I cannot imagine the trauma for nurses of seeing little arms and legs and toes and fingers and baby heads in the waste receptacle. I cannot imagine that! And I don't even want to. Bless them for their strength and tolerance and intestinal fortitude!

Your coat hanger argument falls flat cking. How about the women that try to fall down stairs and get hit in the abdomen to try to terminate the pregnancy? Taking another risk that could possibly physically or intellectually handicap the fetus (and this is in NO way related to eugenics for those who would take it that way). It's all about choice. For an earache or constipation I can go to a doctor or a drugstore for "relief". Without Morgantaler and abortion clinics, we are taking away options for women. Forced responsibility is a crock. How many irresponsible parents are out there right now? I'm in no way posting any type of personal attack towards people in the field of medicine, did you not state earlier that doctors and nurses could refuse to take part in these procedures based on personal religious beliefs? I'm starting to see the religious slant that the Pro-Life posts are taking. Trust me, you don't want to use the hypocrisy of religion to justify any argument with me.

" I'm starting to see the religious slant that the Pro-Life posts are taking."
shagz: Where's the religion in my posts?
cking

I could very well be wrong, but "Bless them for their strength and tolerance and intestinal fortitude!" started to make me feel like this topic is starting to slide to a religious stance.

This is my last comment on this topic: (I promise!)

The first photos of Brad and Angelina's newborn twins will glean 10's of millions of dollars. Other little ones are considered "waste products." A puzzling contrast in our society, eh?

AAACHHHOOOO! Gezundheit! (Whoops! There I go with that "religion" again!
Seems that's German for "Bless you?")