Dr. Morgentaler's Order of Canada

Could be true, rye. Maybe they just don't have the expertise.

OR perhaps, better than "religiously" opposed or "morally" opposed, maybe just "humanly" opposed. Maybe. Who knows for sure? You'd have to ask each one.

"what an odd statement....what kind of tv do you want to watch?"

Maybe he just means pirated from the U.S. via satellite...or something. Hope it's just that! Because that's now considered a criminal offence.

I could start getting creative here..the kinds of TV that are "criminal?" Yikes! What is he trying to tell us?

Hi, just saw MY NAME on a reply to a post? This is the first time I've had the computor on in the last 48 hours! Now I'm going back and read the the rest of the thread.

Sorry pattip...just me not paying attention! I'll stay in after class!

rye wrote:

cking wrote:

The rape of a 12 year old would certainly be an exception. No one would argue that! There are tragedies in life. However, I doubt that the majority of Morgentaler's clients were 12 year old rape victims.

And NGH doesn't perform abortions, not because of "screaming fanatics" but because the doctors are morally opposed. In other words, due to their religious convictions, they are "anti-abortionists."

Morals and religion aren't neccessarily the same thing. Also it may be due to the fact you need to specialize in that sort of thing and NGH just doesn't have the doctors that are.

Actually Rye, I used to work at NGH and Dr Olsson is Catholic, so he doesn't perform abortions. Dr. Soenen is a born again Christian and actually helped start a crisis pregnancy center in Saskatchewan a number of years ago so he doesn't do them. I'm not sure of Dr. Mattar's religious affiliation but I know his children attended the Catholic school system so I am assuming that is where his ties lie. Dr. Fisher was the only one who performed therapeutic abortions and he is retired as I stated. All the surgeons at NGH are general surgeons and each one of them is essentially "qualified" to perform a therapeutic abortion.

http://www.simcoereformer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1098883

I thought this was a good summary. I particularly like the statement: "Some people call Morgentaler a murderer because of his work. But what people need to realize is that he will not be receiving the Order of Canada because he performs abortions. He is receiving it because of what he’s done for women’s rights."

OK, now I'm in for my 2 cents worth. Personally I'm against abortion. Why because I feel that in a lot of cases its used as Birth Control. Study done in B.C. about 25 years ago with University students that had abortions while attending school stated that over 65 % had more than one while they were there. Used it as birth control. One reason was that Birth Control pills made them FAT. Now that said are there cases that an abortion would be the best thing to happen, yes. Rape, major health problems both mother and child, age. I really don't know how I would handle the problem if it was mine.

Society has made abortion the quick fix for condom failure (which is translated as the failure to use a condom). What scares me is these girls aren't even using barrier methods for birth control. In the age of HIV, Herpes, etc, etc. that is the very least that should be used. Twp generations ago there were two common sexually transmitted diseases syphillus and gonerhea. These are bacterial and treatable with antibiotics. Today we have 25 STDs and many of them are viral. One out of every four sexually lactive teens will contact an STD every year (pg. 67, Stenzal, P. 2003, Sex Has a Price Tag)./ That's a US statistic but we are pretty good at keeping up with the Americans.

pattip...is a study conducted over 25 years ago still relevant today? perhaps...perhaps not. I'd like to see what those stats are today. Personally, I have trouble seeing how anyone could use abortion as a form of birth control....not to argue that its not happening....it just seems so foreign to me. Maybe b/c I see it as such a life-altering decision, I assume others would as well. I guess the old adage about making assumption applies here

Also, I'd like to see what percentage of all abortions are given to university students. Even if 65% of that group is using abortion as birth control, if that group only makes up a small percentage of the total women receiving them, that number may not be that significant at all. I wonder if that study also mentions other sub-groups of women....married, single, educated, non-educated, rural, urban......you get the drift.

Berkley when there are girls coming in for their second and third abortion (and I've seen it), you can't bet money that it is being used as a birth control method. I don't judge anyone who has made a mistake but we need to learn from our mistakes.

I agree...but i think in any medical situation, there are those that take advantage of the system....but i would be hesitant to take the right away from anyone b/c of the actions of a minority of perhaps unfeeling, under-educated people. There are situations that arise all the time in which good people have to make terrible choices....and i am glad that currently we have a system that supports all people in this circumstance.

I don't like that there are people that wait for their child-support or welfare cheques to come in so that they can rush down to the beer store or convenience store to buy cigarettes. I don't advocate outlawing the purchase of alcohol or cigarettes.

I think education is the key. If someone is given the education and support they need, perhaps a lot of their life choices would be better.

I"m not sure if we have concentrated on the right education. If you look at the stats I posted earlier regarding STDs you will notice that in two generations STDs have increased from 2 to 25. "Funny" how those years corrulate with the onset of increased sex education. Perhaps there should be more education on respect for self and others.

There's a website I just took a look at...Hassle Free Abortions in Ontario. Scary.

The clinics are all in Ontario, all in Toronto, in fact. Clients at these clinics under 18 do not need any parental agreement.

Seems you need a doctor's referral to a hospital for an abortion...but not to one of these clinics, one being the Morgentaler Clinic. Have a look at this....

http://www.hasslefreeclinic.org/Abortions.html

I'm not sure you do need a referral from your doctor......it might be as easy as contacting a surgeon (or clinic) that performs abortions.....I'll look into this b/c I wonder what a patient could do if they were refused a referral by a family doc who doesn't 'agree' with abortion...this does happen, btw

Whatever happened to the "my body, my choice" argument? I don't frown upon any woman having an abortion for whatever her reasons are. It's not anyone else's business as far as I'm concerned. If you want to cry for the unborn child, maybe you should try doing something to help the already existing ones. Dr. Morgentaler deserves his award because he helped bring much press for the subject of abortion and who cares if he made money from it. Comparing him to Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust is sickening to me. You seem to forget that the Nazi's were committing genocide, and Dr. Morgentaler dealt with women from all backgrounds. I don't think that he, or any other doctor for that matter that perform abortions, are exactly happy performing the service. I like to think that the anti-abortionists are more that the Nazi Party with their own fascist agendas. I guess they'd rather we all go back to "coat-hanger" clinics.

Your own words from another strand, cking...

Quote :

Just as in any ailment, Jonas, you can find research to support completely opposing sides of an issue. I realize that, but prefer to support this side of the argument. Because it makes sense to me.

Statistics can be found to support any argument.

cking wrote:

rudievalentine: Along the same lines....from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, 2000, an Ontario study of 41, 039 post abortive women during the 3 month period following their abortions revealed these women had a more than 4X higher rate of hospitalization for infection,
a 5X higher rate of "surgical events."
and a 5X higher rate of hospitalization for psychiatric problems
than a matching group of women who had not had abortions.

These very real repercussions cannot be denied.

berkley wrote:

I'm not sure you do need a referral from your doctor......it might be as easy as contacting a surgeon (or clinic) that performs abortions.....I'll look into this b/c I wonder what a patient could do if they were refused a referral by a family doc who doesn't 'agree' with abortion...this does happen, btw

My family doctor is pro-life (which I find a good quality in a doctor btw!). When a girl comes to him wanting an abortion, he will not refer them himself but he will direct them to another family doctor that will. He first counsels them on ALL of their options. He also reassures them that he will certainly keep them as patients and see them "after the fact".

Jonas:"Statistics can be found to support any argument."

I know! That's what makes this messageboard so interesting! It's like a debate. And encourages people to THINK and take a side..instead of sitting on some fence not really caring about the world around them! Take a side and take a stand!

People who THINK and "take a side ' as you say aren't necessarily obligated to spout off about their personal views and convictions on this or any forum. Does that mean they are not really caring about the world around them or does it mean they would prefer not to take sides in an "argument" as opposed to a thoughtfiul and rational discussion.
What is your personal reality and perception is not necessarily someone elses, nor is your reality and perception derived from some higher moral or spiritual supremacy. Give me a break.
Argue on, cking...but don't imply that those who don't care to do so are any less caring about the world around them.

cking wrote:

Jonas:"Statistics can be found to support any argument."

I know! That's what makes this messageboard so interesting! It's like a debate. And encourages people to THINK and take a side..instead of sitting on some fence not really caring about the world around them! Take a side and take a stand!

<<People who THINK and "take a side ' as you say aren't necessarily obligated to spout off about their personal views and convictions on this or any forum. Does that mean they are not really caring about the world around them or does it mean they would prefer not to take sides in an "argument" as opposed to a thoughtfiul and rational discussion.
What is your personal reality and perception is not necessarily someone elses, nor is your reality and perception derived from some higher moral or spiritual supremacy. Give me a break.
Argue on, cking...but don't imply that those who don't care to do so are any less caring about the world around them.>>



true, Jonas - and abortion is one of those emotional issues that cannot be "argued" without people getting upset. Just because someone doesn't care to debate the issue doesn't mean they don't "care". Most people tend to chose their battles

But those who like to, should continue to do so.

shagz wrote:

Whatever happened to the "my body, my choice" argument? I don't frown upon any woman having an abortion for whatever her reasons are. It's not anyone else's business as far as I'm concerned. If you want to cry for the unborn child, maybe you should try doing something to help the already existing ones. Dr. Morgentaler deserves his award because he helped bring much press for the subject of abortion and who cares if he made money from it. Comparing him to Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust is sickening to me. You seem to forget that the Nazi's were committing genocide, and Dr. Morgentaler dealt with women from all backgrounds. I don't think that he, or any other doctor for that matter that perform abortions, are exactly happy performing the service. I like to think that the anti-abortionists are more that the Nazi Party with their own fascist agendas. I guess they'd rather we all go back to "coat-hanger" clinics.

Do you know the procedure for a third trimester abortion? They essentially deliver the baby (still alive) feet first. Before the head is delivered an instrument is inserted in the base of the skull and initiates an opening for a suction catheter to collapse the cerebral contents killing the baby. The dead baby is then delivered. Sounds a little "Nazi" to me. And by the way, Canada has no restrictions on what period in a pregnancy that an abortion can or cannot be done. It could essentially be done at 41 1/2 weeks gestation. These procedures ARE done. What point do you say that an abortion "can't" be done. Who sets the criteria?

I know that 1sr and 2nd trimester abortions are done but where in Canada can you get a 3rd trimester abortion? The latest one I have heard of is at 22 wks...at a clinic in Toronto.

"Statistics Canada figures show that in 2004, there were 4,880 second and third trimester abortions, including 401 abortions after 20 weeks, the point of viability according to the Canadian Medical Association. There were 45 third trimester abortions that year, including five after 33 weeks' gestation. If detailed information was available for all abortions, the actual numbers could be three times higher.
Critics of the ads say, "That's misleading. You don't know the situation of the women having those abortions. They could have serious, life-threatening health problems." Perhaps they do, but why don't we have the evidence?
We have no basis to assume that's the reason for the hundreds of abortions after the point of viability.
In fact, two years ago in the Calgary Herald, Dr. Margaret Somerville, a bioethicist at McGill University, related two instances in which she was consulted by doctors about post-32 week abortions on healthy women. One was for a graduate student who was afraid to tell her parents she was pregnant and the other was a married woman who had been told her child had a cleft palate, a correctable impediment, and she did not want a "defective" child. Dr. Somerville said, "The physicians who called me believed that was unethical, but were unsure how to handle the situation." That is, under the law, they had no reason to refuse to perform an abortion."
Joanne Byfield
For The Calgary Herald

Monday, January 28, 2008

Rudie, I've seen this being performed on video when I was in highschool, in a propaganda video put forth by Pro-Life groups. I wouldn't advocate it myself, but I still believe that it's within the mother's rights as to what she wishes to do with her own body. As for Nazism, it's the Pro-Lifer's that shoot doctors that perform abortions and threaten clinics, trying to impose THEIR will upon others.