Provincial Liberals slamming the door on buyout?

Well all be darned, everyone is happy all day and now it appears the provincial government is not accepting the buyout , if they dont the feds will continue with thier portion of the buyout which is 1.05/lb. Most tobacco farmers were frustrated but happy none the less to move on with 1.74/lb, if the pronvicial government does not accept we will be back to square one

Quote :

Province says ‘no’ to funding exit plan


By Jeff Helsdon

Staff Writer

Ontario’s provincial government won’t be funding 40 per cent of a tobacco exit strategy announced Friday morning in Delhi.

That was the message from provincial agriculture minister Leona Dombrosky that afternoon when she was asked about the possibility of an exit package.

“The Province of Ontario has only one message on this and that’s the users (of tobacco products), not the taxpayers, should pay,” she said in a telephone interview. “This is consistent with what the tobacco board originally proposed.”

The tobacco board’s original proposal was to add a surtax on tobacco products to pay for an exit strategy for farmers.

Earlier today, federal agriculture minister Gerry Ritz announced an injection of more than $300 million into the tobacco belt. The grower’s portion of that would be $1.05 per pound. The federal share of $1.05 per pound will be provided regardless of the provincial position. With the traditional 60/40 sharing of agriculture programs, the provincial share would have been 69¢ per pound.

During his announcement, Ritz said the federal portion would be paid through fines levied against Imperial Tobacco and Rothmans Benson and Hedges for involvement in contraband tobacco. Asked if the province might consider the same, as it wouldn’t be out of the taxpayers’ pocket, Dombrowsky looked at the matter differently.

“Those dollars were delivered to Ontario because those were dollars that should have come to the Province of Ontario and didn’t,” she said, adding the money should go in general revenue to fund health and smoking cessation programs.

No, those funds were delivered to the province to help the farmers due to the provinces neglect in stopping the illegal cig trade and the government and companies ruining our legal business! Also why did the feds announce this buyout without getting the province on board first?

It just never ends I guess

Skully,
I think it is also a bit of partisan politics being shown.
A Liberal Provincial government would would have a lot of difficulty jumping on a Conservative bandwagon-vice versa too I suppose. They can't join because in their opinion it looks bad to support the enemies plan.

skully this is the first i heard of this, i hope it is not true my husband and i are tobacco farmers also, this news really sucks. was it not the provincial gov. that waited for the feds now we wait for them

I cringe everytime I hear the name Leona Dombrosky.. she's one corrupt individual.

To the average taxpayer, $300 million of their money is probably more than enough.

Watchman wrote:

To the average taxpayer, $300 million of their money is probably more than enough.

The money is not coming from the average tax payer, its coming from a lawsuit against the tobacco companies, this should be pleasing to everyone around including you the average tax payer. At 300 million thats 1.05/lb if a farmer has half a million debt and only 100000-200,000 lbs of quota he still remains in debt after the buyout and can no longer grow.

It was the pronvincial and federal liberal mps' who brought the motion to the house of commons just last month with the proposal that tobacco tax would fund the buyout. Well with the lawsuit and the tobacco companies paying back 1 billion in tobacco tax to the feds and pronvicial government then the tobacco tax is right there to be used. The feds have offered up thier share and now its up to the pronvince to fullfill its promise of providing the 40% unless ofcourse what they brought to the house was simply a vote grabbing lie.

300 million on the outside lookin in seems like alot of money, but there is 1500-1600 quota holders, 600 or so active farmers and I would say 99% of them are in such a hole that 1.05 is simply not enough. Lets also look at past buyouts in this country and around the world, the US got 10usd/lb, Australia got I believe around 7.00/lb, Quebec got 2.52/lb, the last buyout in Ontario which could only accomadate a few hundred was 1.75/lb when all said and done and I believe New Zealand also has provided a buyout well above the 1.74/lb this program calls for.

The feds yesterday provided thier share but they also said the buyout will be for 1.74, we all expect and hope the province kicks in its share or this program will likely fail before it even starts. Dont get me wrong though 1.05 helps but its simply not enough to exit and move on for the majority of tobacco farmers.

Those tobacco taxes that you refer to are taxes that should have already gone to government coffers to help offset tobacco related illnesses.

Sure it sounds good that it is business that is paying for the buyout but we all know that this is not the case.

I agree that transition funding should have been provided to those people still growing and wanted to switch to a new crop but extra money for those people who are no longer growing should never have been provided.

To my understanding though, once you take the buyout you are no longer allowed to produce tobacco anymore? I am glad that they enforced that issue. There is no way that you should be allowed the buyout and still allowed to grow tobacco after under any free market system. You shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways.

Watchman wrote:

Those tobacco taxes that you refer to are taxes that should have already gone to government coffers to help offset tobacco related illnesses.


I agree that transition funding should have been provided to those people still growing and wanted to switch to a new crop but extra money for those people who are no longer growing should never have been provided.

To my understanding though, once you take the buyout you are no longer allowed to produce tobacco anymore? I am glad that they enforced that issue. There is no way that you should be allowed the buyout and still allowed to grow tobacco after under any free market system. You shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways.

Sure it was already to go to the government but those lost taxes that are now being recovered were lost tobacco sale tax revenue, not average tax payer money. Lets not forget that those companies actions in the illegal market also ruined our business.

I agree some what with your take on non growing quota holders not getting any funds, but i would word it differently. I think if a farmer anywhere from now and say 10 years back stop growing due to thier debts and were forced to stop should get funding, I think anyone that grew or never grew at all beyond 10 years ago and just decided to stop and hold thier quota for a payday should not get funding. However I do not believe thier is many of those people left as i think most of them got out in the first buyout provided by the liberals and speller.

The program as I understood it says you can take the buyout but your done growing and if you decide to not take the buyout thier will be a new system put in place by the government for future growers of tobacco and I agree if you take the money its time to move on but one thing is for sure 1.05 is not enough, the province must join in.

I believe all farmers will not take it unless the province joins the party

One more thing, I also believe that if the province and feds say tobacco kills you they should make it illegal after this buyout and therefore they will need no more money to fund health issues related to tobacco. But dont tell me it kills us and continue to let it be sold and use tax money to fund it and other privileges like education, road construction etc etc.

SkullyCapone wrote:

One more thing, I also believe that if the province and feds say tobacco kills you they should make it illegal after this buyout and therefore they will need no more money to fund health issues related to tobacco. But dont tell me it kills us and continue to let it be sold and use tax money to fund it and other privileges like education, road construction etc etc.

Well said Skully.

Space Cadet wrote:

Skully,
I think it is also a bit of partisan politics being shown.
A Liberal Provincial government would would have a lot of difficulty jumping on a Conservative bandwagon-vice versa too I suppose. They can't join because in their opinion it looks bad to support the enemies plan.

McGuinty would have a hard time jumping onto any bandwagon. He would first have to learn how to jump.

He can't lead a one man parade down a hallway.

I'm really confused about this whole thing. the money is coming from the settlement that the Tobacco companies agreed too. If it's so much why are the feds only giving about 1/3 for the buyout? where is the rest going? Dianne Finley said at the meeting that she had worked hard for 4 1/2 years to get the money. Did she know 4 1/2 years ago they would settle for that amount? How soon are the farmers going to get the money? Some settlements have taken up to 10 years to be paid. Really don't want to sound like a wet blanket but sounds like the feds are making political hay here. Maybe Diane doesn't want to be parachuted into another riding!

pattip wrote:

I'm really confused about this whole thing. the money is coming from the settlement that the Tobacco companies agreed too. If it's so much why are the feds only giving about 1/3 for the buyout? where is the rest going? Dianne Finley said at the meeting that she had worked hard for 4 1/2 years to get the money. Did she know 4 1/2 years ago they would settle for that amount? How soon are the farmers going to get the money? Some settlements have taken up to 10 years to be paid. Really don't want to sound like a wet blanket but sounds like the feds are making political hay here. Maybe Diane doesn't want to be parachuted into another riding!

I see it totally different. I see a number given to me by the feds, a guarantee that I will get 1.05 from them. Diane promised she would deliver more than the liberals ever did and she has delivered on that regard. The only ones I see who played political games so far is the liberal party who promised to help us, brought up a motion in the house demanding the feds put together a plan which they would back with 40% and then turned around and told us to go to hell when the feds actually did. Sure it took a long time to get the job done on the federal side but when they came across the money they delivered, the rest of the money your wondering about I believe is going to be going to all provinces across canada.

So if your questioning anyones agenda here I would start with the fact the liberal party apperently lied to everyone and simply used our struggles to try and gain a few votes thinking the feds wouldnt ever come through and if they fail to chip in thier 40% as promised it will be the liberals fault not the conservatives who axed yet another chance to end this issue once and for all.

...I often wonder if liquor manufacturers went for a buyout during prohibition...

I do have to agree with one point from the province.

Why should Ontario taxpayers be on the hook for what is essentially a product that is sold country wide? The fact that it is a national product is the reason that the buyout should be on a national level as only the federal government has the authority to issue a levy on a product nationwide.

You don't see the tobacco growers demanding a buyout from Alberta do you even though that province surely consumes tobacco products?

The fact that the federal government has finally shown up with a buyout package totally $300 million is quite the accomplishment and hopefully that many farmers are finally able to exit the industry and move on with their lives.

"Why should Ontario taxpayers be on the hook for what is essentially a product that is sold country wide? The fact that it is a national product is the reason that the buyout should be on a national level as only the federal government has the authority to issue a levy on a product nationwide."

Also from what I understand is that the Fed's got thier $$$ from a court case win, so more or less "free money" whereas the the provincial gov'rt would be getting thier 'share' from the taxpayers... I'm not for my taxes going into a buyout. Especially when some of these farmers are still running around in $50,000 pickup trucks, $10,000 ATV's and the like, and as I wrote elsewhere, I worked for a tobacco farmer 12yrs ago (or maybe more) and I remember back then he was wanting to 'get out' of the tobacco industry because of it's decline, and felt that staying in it for too long it would get harder and harder to get out. I believe he did so 3 or 4 years later, and started growing something else.

Watchman wrote:

I do have to agree with one point from the province.

Why should Ontario taxpayers be on the hook for what is essentially a product that is sold country wide? The fact that it is a national product is the reason that the buyout should be on a national level as only the federal government has the authority to issue a levy on a product nationwide.

You don't see the tobacco growers demanding a buyout from Alberta do you even though that province surely consumes tobacco products?

The fact that the federal government has finally shown up with a buyout package totally $300 million is quite the accomplishment and hopefully that many farmers are finally able to exit the industry and move on with their lives.

The money will come from the tobacco company lawsuit which is lost tobacco sales tax not regular ontario tax payers, in that lawsuit each province will be recieving money with the feds taking out 300 for the buyout. The money isnt coming from ontario tax payers, its coming from lost smoker tax dollars.

aguyinbrantford wrote:

"Why should Ontario taxpayers be on the hook for what is essentially a product that is sold country wide? The fact that it is a national product is the reason that the buyout should be on a national level as only the federal government has the authority to issue a levy on a product nationwide."

Also from what I understand is that the Fed's got thier $$$ from a court case win, so more or less "free money" whereas the the provincial gov'rt would be getting thier 'share' from the taxpayers... I'm not for my taxes going into a buyout. Especially when some of these farmers are still running around in $50,000 pickup trucks, $10,000 ATV's and the like, and as I wrote elsewhere, I worked for a tobacco farmer 12yrs ago (or maybe more) and I remember back then he was wanting to 'get out' of the tobacco industry because of it's decline, and felt that staying in it for too long it would get harder and harder to get out. I believe he did so 3 or 4 years later, and started growing something else.

Ontario is getting 165 million form the lawsuit, everything else you said is garbage as far as im concerned, you want to drive what i drive be my guest, its 98 purple neon on its last legs given to me because I couldnt afford to buy one.

Would you likje to trade my neon for what you drive straight up? Maybe then you can actually tell me I drive something nice.

"Ontario is getting 165 million form the lawsuit" then I stand corrected on that, however you may be driving a tired purple Neon but I have seen others who are not... for example that shiney new Silverado that one of the farmers were driving in that protest outside tha bank a bit back, and besides I said "some of these farmers" I did not say all so relax.

As for what I said is garbage maybe so to you, but knowing what I did all those years ago working that farm, himself and I didn't (don't) see the need to stay in a dying industry. That's just my opinion. I myself was in a similar situation about 5 years ago (not in the same scale, but the circumstances are the same)

I worked, making fairly good money, running beer trucks (delivering to bars and whatnot) for TBS. In the last year I was there my knee was starting to wear out... so I left before my knee got to the point where it would be a problem in any line of work. Then I took a full time course (living off EI for the whole period) so life was rough untill I finished the course (Millwright) and went to work again. Now my knee is still a concern but not in the same respect as it would have been if I had kept delivering beer. So what I am saying is that, back when the decline started some of these farmers should have gotten out when it could have been easier to do so

OK Skully, answer this question for me: Is it not possible/probable that some wealthy tobacco farmers will get the buyout....and then be "doomed" never to grow tobacco again. Right? (as according to the news stories and specifics of the buyout.)

BUT THEY themselves will not grow tobacco again...but will they not be able to put the quota in their wife's name? Or son's name? Or form a company? It will still be THEM...and they will wiggle around the requirements and the rules. Is this not a distinct possibility?

Also...for every guy like you driving a 98 Neon...purple...or whatever colour! ..are there not tobacco farmers driving Cadillac Escalade SUV's and huge extended cab pickup trucks. Or both?

There are MANY tobacco farmers who didn't even blink when all of this came down. And they will continue to do well in spite of what transpires. Has been and always will be. They inherited huge, successful farms with no mortgages...and the rich get richer.

Unfortunately for people like you, those other tobacco farmers are the ones who catch the eye of the public. Just as it always has been. The little guy is the loser.

"Unfortunately for people like you, those other tobacco farmers are the ones who catch the eye of the public. Just as it always has been. The little guy is the loser" wich is the case with any industry, this is why I am not very favourable of any kind of buyout for your industry, my industry etc. And regardless where the gov'rt says they are getting the money from, we will all pay for it in some form or fashion... we always do.

cking wrote:

OK Skully, answer this question for me: Is it not possible/probable that some wealthy tobacco farmers will get the buyout....and then be "doomed" never to grow tobacco again. Right? (as according to the news stories and specifics of the buyout.)

BUT THEY themselves will not grow tobacco again...but will they not be able to put the quota in their wife's name? Or son's name? Or form a company? It will still be THEM...and they will wiggle around the requirements and the rules. Is this not a distinct possibility?

Also...for every guy like you driving a 98 Neon...purple...or whatever colour! ..are there not tobacco farmers driving Cadillac Escalade SUV's and huge extended cab pickup trucks. Or both?

There are MANY tobacco farmers who didn't even blink when all of this came down. And they will continue to do well in spite of what transpires. Has been and always will be. They inherited huge, successful farms with no mortgages...and the rich get richer.

Unfortunately for people like you, those other tobacco farmers are the ones who catch the eye of the public. Just as it always has been. The little guy is the loser.

My question to you is if you see a local farmer in town driving a hummer or escalade how are you sure that farmer grows tobacco? I agree many years ago life was good for tobacco farmers and many drove nice vehicles and had nice homes but those times are long gone as the legal business which produced a healthy living for farmers and the community was ripped from us through illegal markets and government actions and in its place came huge debt loads. As for farms being handed to them, im sure lots of people thought that about me, except I never got the farm from my old man, I rented, I bought my own quota, I bought the farm house and pay a mortgage, pay my quota loans, provide for my three girls and wife, paid for my oqn euipment etc etc. Do you assume because a farmers son took over that he got a free ride? Maybe he paid for it, maybe he worked his tail off for free his entire life for his old man and deserved that chance even if he got a deal?

As for getting out before it happened, some people talk as if this was a 20 year slow decline when infact it wasnt, things turned suddenly after the companies and government asked tobacco farmers to invest in new burners and in return they would provide a stable market. It wasnt a year later it went from well over one hundred million lbs to 80 and the following year 40 and now we sit at 16-17 million lbs. That is not a long drawn out process where people were able to see it coming, infact people were tricked into investing huge amounts of money and then seen thier legal business crash instantly and there was no time to get out. As years went on and promises from governments of a buyout alot of farmers despite going in the hole every year continued to grow for fear of not being included in the future buyout or not being able to get into these politicians so called future programs (which never came)

As for quota, the quota system is gone once the buyout happens, there will be a new system put in place through the government, I assume no wife or child can grow under your name but perhaps you could do it under an uncle but thats alot of headache I dont think anyone wants. I dont see the price being worth it anyways, you cant make it now at the prices they want to pay and im sure it will only go down more as more and more policies are put in place or perhaps a complete ban.

Farmers also cant get unemployment, health benefits one might get from working with the beer factories, and retirement money and what not, who paid for your unemployment aguy while you went to school? My tax dollars? Who is paying for the knee issues you have and therapy you have got over the years on it, us tax payers? There is things you get farmers cant get and there is things farmers get that you cant but in the end I believe it all works out the same should everyone be treated farely but you dont see me writing tales of how rich you are and how you got so called free money do you? In tobacco farmers case I believe we were tricked, robbed, dragged and beaten into submission all within a 7-10 year span. Lets also not forget that the community has also recieved compensation twice because of tobacco, but for some reason there is never questions about that, there is never questions as to where this community would be or even if it would be a community if not for all the tobacco farmers and huge business it brought to the area for decades. Would the jobs you did through the years be here if not for the tobacco boom?

The way I see it I respect you, you should respect me, I support my neighbour even if I dont always agree with what he gets or does, I wish we all felt the same, unfortunely some who get just as much and do things equally as bad to themselfs and others just cant help themselfs but to talk crap about others way of life and the things they have or dont have.

To clarify, I didn't get a dime from TBS as I quit... and no one pays for my knee, I live with it and wear a brace when it becomes too much, and EI is as much my tax dollars as it is yours... I paid into it when I was working...

and I also said "some farmers"... I feel for the others who are in a bad way. However this 'decline' has been there for at least 10-15 years, and in an industry that produces an unhealthy product, in a society that has been getting more and more health consious, it is only logical to know it's only a matter of time before it is dead.

It's kind of like buying a big gas pig, then in 10 or so years when gas is 2.50/L trying to get your money back for the car because the powers that be have made it too expensive, and you can't use the vehicle anymore

aguyinbrantford wrote:

To clarify, I didn't get a dime from TBS as I quit... and no one pays for my knee, I live with it and wear a brace when it becomes too much, and EI is as much my tax dollars as it is yours... I paid into it when I was working...

and I also said "some farmers"... I feel for the others who are in a bad way. However this 'decline' has been there for at least 10-15 years, and in an industry that produces an unhealthy product, in a society that has been getting more and more health consious, it is only logical to know it's only a matter of time before it is dead.

It's kind of like buying a big gas pig, then in 10 or so years when gas is 2.50/L trying to get your money back for the car because the powers that be have made it too expensive, and you can't use the vehicle anymore

If it is unhealthy why is it legal? Why does the government allow an illegal market to eat up 40-50% of cigarette sales in Canada? Why does the province use a deadly product to fund education, road repair and other things like EI? One could of thought well because they asked me to invest in new burners and promised me a stable market I will be okay, one could of thought they would not allow an illegal market grow so big it swallowed up the entire market in canada.

Im not a buyer im a seller, I run a business, im the truck company not the big gas pig truck buyer and you can bet your butt if you owned a business and the government allowed to let an illegal business flourish just down the road right before your eyes which ruined your business you would cry foul to and ask for help. If the government added sin taxes to your beer companies, disallowed bars and resturants to sell alcohol among all the other strict policies they placed on tobacco you can bet that those beer companies would seek compensation, if I owned a dodge business and and they allowed replica dodge vehicles to sell on the reserves for 1/4 the price with dodges name until it ate up 50% of sales in canada and all the while disallowed dodge or any other vehicle to be sold or driven because of pollutiuon you can bet those companies would seek compensation.

As far as you getting EI and you have a right to it because you pay your taxes, well so do I so i guess I have a right to some myself. Thing is I dont have a problem with you getting EI, I dont have a problem with you getting health benefits because of your knee, i dont have a problem with you getting coverage for therapy and stuff like that on your disabilities, I could careless. Infact im happy for you and wish you all the best but for some odd reason you just cant accept a farmer getting help despite the obvious hell farmers have been through and the obvious reasons why. Wether it was one year or 10 years or a 20 year delcine the fact of the matter is tobacco was a legal business, continues to be a legal business and because of policies from both the federal and provinicial government and the illegal market which they allow to continue tobacco farming is dead, someones gotta be on the hook for ruining, slandering and shutting down legal businesses. The federal government chose to use the company lawsuit to fund it trying to please everyone and so regular tax payers like yourself wouldnt have to foot the bill, but you still complain, you still have a problem with it, so i come to the conclusion you just dont like tobacco farmers or farmers in general and feel they are entitled to nothing. I think you really mean it when you say you feel sorry for some farmers, I get the feeling you had some issues with one farmer in the past and feel its the same with all, I dont know.

I just think its pretty sad that you dont stand up for your neighbours, all of them.

Yikes! All I asked was if you could start growing after the buyout in the name of a relative. I didn't start the fire. Just asked a question.

And, I happen to have lived my whole life in this area so I KNOW farmers with the big trucks and who they are. And what's up with them. Probably went to school with some of them. Knew their parents. Some of them are wealthy folks...and have been for three generations.

Also...you seem to think in other businesses/careers, there are lots of "freebies"...like therapy, free services. I taught for 26 years and now that I am retired, I pay $450 a month for the extended health plan and dental.
Nothing free about that.