Taser

Blue Jays fan wrote:

Justice wrote:

Quote :

BTW...how many "passing cars..." can there be in the sticks of Norfolk? Just wondering?

I'm still looking for the part of the article that says he was a large man???

You'll be looking all night and still won't find it. It's not there. I've seen or heard no mention of his size in the media. Like I said earlier, the Hamilton TV station said that he was swinging a large metal object. I'm positive they said it was a railing from a porch, although I find that hard to picture. There was also mention on TV of him breaking one of those large roadside telephone boxes.

The first three stories on the Hamilton TV news at noon today were from Norfolk. The Taser death, the attempted murder/suicide in Turkey Point and the young girl getting killed on the motorcycle.

Makes me feel like I'm living in Toronto, not Norfolk. It's been a bad couple of weeks, hasn't it?

Amnesty International Canada calls for a moratorium on tasers....

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/448779

[quote="Justice"]

Quote :

? I'm still looking for the part of the article that says he was a large man???

From today's Simcoe Reformer.

http://www.simcoereformer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1088063

Jeffrey Mark Marreel, 36, who occasionally lived with his parents in the Delhi area, was known to police and had a history of drug abuse, said his father, Noel Marreel, yesterday.

Noel Marreel described his son as a big, strong boy weighing about 200 pounds.

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I don't know about you, but if I had such an individual coming at me with a large steel bar that had just been hitting other cars with it, I wouldn't think twice about using enough force to take him down before he could hurt me. One hit to the head with that bar would be potentially life threatening to the officers.

I don't think you can find a better instance of justification for using a taser over a gun. The officers had a choice to make and they took the one that had the potential to be less life threatening to the individual. The other option of using a gun would have resulted in perhaps not fatally injuring him but then they would come under pressure for why they didn't use a taser instead of a gun.

...so whats the alternative....

The Police need a tool (other then a gun) that will stop an assailant at a distance. Something that works yet doesn't kill, but allows them to do their job in as safe a manner possible....

hmmm... an unarmed violent criminal, that may have possibly assaulted a woman or child is running away from an officer. he has No Taser....looks like the criminal gets away THIS time, maybe NEXT time he comits the act they will catch him...yeah maybe...

People they aren't using these things on speeders and "stop sign runners"... they are using them on unruley either high on something or unarmed physically unrestrianable assailants. Personally, I think it's a better alternative to shooting them or letting them go. IF they shoot them many more of tthese individuals will be dieing... or oh yeah...the police could just let them run away....

While there is no question that all the facts are required before coming to a conclusion in this case, there does seem to be a concensus that there are issues with the taser or the persons doing the tasering. I understand that one of the recommendations being made to the RCMP is that tasers not even be issued to officers with less than 5 years of active duty.

As to those who are concerned with how to deal with such a person, I wonder whatever happened to that old fashioned method of firing a warning shot into the air. I know that would get my attention.

wombat wrote:

While there is no question that all the facts are required before coming to a conclusion in this case, there does seem to be a concensus that there are issues with the taser or the persons doing the tasering. I understand that one of the recommendations being made to the RCMP is that tasers not even be issued to officers with less than 5 years of active duty.

As to those who are concerned with how to deal with such a person, I wonder whatever happened to that old fashioned method of firing a warning shot into the air. I know that would get my attention.

You can't fire off a warning shot into the air, as that's careless discharge of a firearm. Afterall, that bullet has to go somewhere! I'm all for tasers, there's no innocent bystanders that could get hurt if an altercation ensues. That in itself should be a big relief to the public.

The guy must have had some kind of issues .. maybe drugs, off his meds, who knows. But what are you suppose to do when someone is weilding around a piece of iron from a step. He wasn't waving a white flag surrendering so he must have meant to harm someone as no sane person would do such a thing.

I''m sure tasers are used more often than not and there are no deaths. So whats the alternative to all you that are freaking out? Give the cops the Ok to pull the gun out of the holster and fire away?

The way I see it, only one person was hurt. If he had hurt just one person other than himself that would piss me off more than anything!

If the cop had shot the guy in the leg with his gun, chances are he would have lived....

Either way, the taser clearly isn't "non-lethal" like it was always stated....so maybe it's time to find another method... even running the guy over with a car probably wouldn't have killed him....

I guess bottom line is don't become so distruptive that you need to get tased....

The S-I-U say an autopsy on Jeffrey Marreel is inconclusive.
Maybe it was something else?

The problem with society today is that everyone has "rights". What a load of BS!!! If I was the one driving down that road and saw some nut job waving the metal stairs and threatening to throw it at a car I would have call the cops too or better yet ... run the SOB over and claimed self defence! If he had a drug problem like I have read on several boards then someone in his family should have helped him long time ago! Quite honestly I am tired of people saying that so & so had mental, drug, family issues - whatever the case maybe - and doing harm to innocent people and expecting the victim of the situation to understand and forgive. People need to take responsibility for their actions and face the music. No more excuses folks!!!!

rye wrote:

If the cop had shot the guy in the leg with his gun, chances are he would have lived....

Either way, the taser clearly isn't "non-lethal" like it was always stated....so maybe it's time to find another method... even running the guy over with a car probably wouldn't have killed him....

I guess bottom line is don't become so distruptive that you need to get tased....

The point is that the tazer didn't "kill" otherwise it would have done so immediately. He died two hours after the incident. You say that running over him wouldn't "kill" him but death could result because of the injuries. Shooting him in the leg may not have "killed" him but infection and blood loss could have resulted in his death.
Lets compare apples to apples if we are suggesting alternatives.

The recommendations in the report by Paul Kennedy the Complaints Commissioner for the RCMP may shed some light on some of the concernss around tasers....

http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/DefaultSite/Investigations/index_e.aspx?ArticleID=1805

The report refers specifically to marginalized people and the fact they may be tasered more indiscriminantly than other folks.

Quote :

... but are not limited to, people with mental health issues, substance abuse problems, the homeless, and other persons from marginalized groups.

Seeing the issue from the point of view of the father of the tasered person, or from the point of view of the tasered person himself is not an irrelevant excercise in a civilized society. If he had indeed been shot with a firearm...in the leg?..or whatever ..he would still have had a chance to turn his life around. And yes, this person does have rights...whether combative, on drugs, or homeless.

It may be interesting to ask just how many resouces or facilities there are for those with mental health issues, substance abuse issues or the homeless in Norfolk. I recall not so long ago Holmes House being temporarily closed for lack of funding. Or is the answer to let marginalized people deteriorate to the point where they end up getting tasered? Just wondering?

The issues here are complex and and should not be seen just in terms of "black and white."

WAVING A WEAPON OR NOT, WHY WAS HE LYING IN A POOL OF BLOOD? AND WHY WAS AN AMBULANCE CALLED AFTER ALL THAT BLOOD AND HE WAS NOT TRANSPORTED TO EMERG ASAP. I SAW THE PUDDLE OF BLOOD AND I REALLY DONT THINK ANYONE COULD SURVIVE THAT WITHOUT MED ATTENTION.....GET A GRIP PEOPLE!!!!!!!!

http://www.cmha-hn.ca/ This site outlines some of the services available to serve those with mental health issues and their families.

From what the I gathered from the CHCH news is that he ripped a cover off a Bell Canada system and cut himself and then left blood on the Charity Clothes bin ... all before he was tasered. Do ya think that could be where the blood came from???

If anyone should be getting a grip its the people with medical problems that threaten society in a way in which he did!!!

So,...he got tasered before he could hurt himself further and get more blood on the Charity Clothes bin?

farmersdaughter wrote:

From what the I gathered from the CHCH news is that he ripped a cover off a Bell Canada system and cut himself and then left blood on the Charity Clothes bin ... all before he was tasered. Do ya think that could be where the blood came from???

If anyone should be getting a grip its the people with medical problems that threaten society in a way in which he did!!!

God No! I suppose what I should have said is that he hurt himself and bled BEFORE the taser. Sounds like self inflicted to me. Sorry, should have been more clearer.

farmersdaughter wrote:

God No! I suppose what I should have said is that he hurt himself and bled BEFORE the taser. Sounds like self inflicted to me. Sorry, should have been more clearer.

So he hurt himself, lost a lot of blood and was a "danger to society" enough to be tasered?

Police oblivious to pain Tasers inflict: RCMP complaints commissioner

The head of the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP said the force has to start listening to the public when it comes to using stun guns.

Paul Kennedy made his comments on Taser use Wednesday at the Braidwood Inquiry, which heard testimony for the final day before wrapping for the summer. The inquiry will reconvene on Oct. 20.

Retired Justice Thomas Braidwood is examining the controversial weapons.

Kennedy told the inquiry there is a problem when police are using a Tasers on teenagers, the elderly and passive citizens.

He said stun guns are used more often when multiple officers are at a scene and most often by constables on general patrol.

Kennedy said police don’t seem to appreciate how much pain is inflicted by the Taser, which he called insidious.

'There is something about that device itself that requires additional safeguards.'
—Paul Kennedy, head of the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP"I think there is something about that device itself that requires additional safeguards because you don't see it … and you might become immune to it," he said.

"Listen to the public…the public is telling you 'we have concerns with this device' and if you don’t modify your behaviour you are not going to be in sync with the public whom you should be serving."

Reclassification of Tasers as firearms recommended
B.C.'s police complaint commissioner, Dirk Ryneveld, has told the Braidwood Inquiry that Tasers may be misclassified as prohibited weapons, as opposed to prohibited firearms, as defined under Canada's criminal code.




http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/06/25/bc-more-taser-testing.html

I still don't understand why Pepper spray wasn't used, I know it was stated that you have to be close to the person to use, but if that's so why isn't it in a can like the bug spray that can spray 10-12 feet? Or is it? Also how close do you have to be to use a Taser? If its 10-12 feet too then it should have been used. Also reports state that 4 police cars where there, so atleast 4 officers where present, and if the blood at the scene was as much as reported why wasn't he taken to the hospital before the OPP station?

Hey Justice ... comprehend this ... he lost blood more than likely from the two incidences. And he was waving a metal piece from some stairs. No sane person would go down a road waving this or any other object at passing vehicles.

thick people .. geez!

Until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes you can't really say anything about that person. I am not a cop, would not want to be a cop. the job they do is a tough, demanding job that is one of the few where you put your life on the line daily. That has to be a lot of stress. Were they wrong to taser the guy? Would pepper spray have done the job just as well? If there were 4 cops there should they have just tackled him and wrestled him to the ground? Who knows. Judgement call on the scene.

I do think Tasers have been pushed to the forefront of enforcement as a quick means to taking a suspect down. Sort of the 'in' thing to use. Much like pepper spray likely was when it came out. I also feel that pumping 50000 volts into a body has got to do some harm. They always say it is not the voltage that kills ya but the amps. How many amps do tasers put out?

As someone said, the juncture of Fisher's Glen Road and the Front Road is not a highly travelled area. Was there a reason that time and patience couldn't have resulted in a more peaceful resolution to the incident? After all, more people are more inconvenienced more often and for more time on regular traffic occurrences on the 400 series highways.

One has to wonder, always, whether the depletion of experienced officers in the OPP doesn't play some role in this increased confrontational occurrences we see here in Norfolk. Is there any truth to the perception that we are perhaps the training ground for young, gung-ho OPP recruits?

rudievalentine wrote:

rye wrote:

If the cop had shot the guy in the leg with his gun, chances are he would have lived....

Either way, the taser clearly isn't "non-lethal" like it was always stated....so maybe it's time to find another method... even running the guy over with a car probably wouldn't have killed him....

I guess bottom line is don't become so distruptive that you need to get tased....

The point is that the tazer didn't "kill" otherwise it would have done so immediately. He died two hours after the incident. You say that running over him wouldn't "kill" him but death could result because of the injuries. Shooting him in the leg may not have "killed" him but infection and blood loss could have resulted in his death.
Lets compare apples to apples if we are suggesting alternatives.

That's like saying someone who dies of a heart attack didn't die because of the heart attack because they died 2 hours after they had it.

The point of my post is that LESS people died when they didn't have the easy way out of using a taser to subdue their suspect!!

pattip wrote:

I still don't understand why Pepper spray wasn't used, I know it was stated that you have to be close to the person to use, but if that's so why isn't it in a can like the bug spray that can spray 10-12 feet? Or is it? Also how close do you have to be to use a Taser? If its 10-12 feet too then it should have been used. Also reports state that 4 police cars where there, so atleast 4 officers where present, and if the blood at the scene was as much as reported why wasn't he taken to the hospital before the OPP station?

If the man was on crack heroin pcp or something like that, pepper spray would be useless... Wouldn't have hurt to try though...but I wasn't there so I didn't see how it went down.